Curse

Symbol · Oct 01, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Shadow refuge is mediocre, enough so that I often find I get more mileage by going deadly arts and simply snaring anything that tries to pound on me. Sure that strategy leave me wide open to degen, but shadow refuge doesn't deal with any sort of serious degen anyway, so I'm not missing much.

Lord Oranos · Oct 01, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Shadow refuge is mediocre, enough so that I often find I get more mileage by going deadly arts and simply snaring anything that tries to pound on me. Sure that strategy leave me wide open to degen, but shadow refuge doesn't deal with any sort of serious degen anyway, so I'm not missing much.

Exactly what I was getting at, and Zui, thats what I mean, you have to be close to a target, within casting range, thats more than enough to get smoked for that extra heal at the end.

I guess well just have to wait and see what the new skills can offer us in Nightfall.

Though I have seen Earth Prayers to be a decent addition to an AoD sin, using conviction, vital boon, and sig of piety for defense.

Symbol · Oct 02, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

My main problem with shadow refuge is that it's a skill with no clear purpose. The bonus suggests it's meant to be an in-combat heal, but the short duration and 1s cast time + aftercast makes it unwieldy for that purpose. The regen suggests it's meant to be an out of combat heal, but it isn't really enough without the bonus.

Even skills I would normally never consider (like way of perfection) suddenly become attractive in comparison to Shadow Refuge. In scrub PvP where no one is going to bother to remove an assassin's enchants (outside of immediately threatening stuff like AoD) WoP's drawbacks become negligible. In organized pvp Shadow Refuge is pointless outside of ganking, because it's basically terrible at mitigating any sort of serious degen or damage pressure, so you might as well devote that slot to something more useful (say a block/evade stance for avoiding physical spikes, or signet of malice for condition removal, or siphon speed for movement control, etc)

It's just one of those skills that people take, not because it's good, but because its the only alternative. Shadow Refuge is the only on-demand assassin heal available. So people find room to squeeze it into their bars, even if it never ends up doing much for them.

some guy · Oct 02, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Shadow refuge is a bit mediocre, even ether feast is better than this.

Priest Of Sin · Oct 03, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Assassins have NO decent self-heals, IMO. Thus, I pair Monk with the assassin when PvEing. I drop Vig Spirit or Live Vicariously and spam death blossom. Hitting multiple foes with vampiric daggers usually heals me up nice. As for out of combat heals, the assassin is truely lacking.

Phoenix Arrows · Oct 03, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Troll > Refuge. You can get Troll up every 10/13 seconds, with Refuge only 8/16 seconds. True, you might get healed more from the health gain while attacking, but Refuge can get stripped, unlike Troll. A/W Heal Sig > A/X Refuge :S

Regen just sucks, especially as an enchant.

TiggerDeathDagger · Oct 07, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

People you must realize that assassins dont take damage they get in kill and get out before the opponets blow lands. So this skill can work wonders along with a a couple other skills like Shroud of Distress

Lord Oranos · Oct 08, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiggerDeathDagger

People you must realize that assassins dont take damage they get in kill and get out before the opponets blow lands. So this skill can work wonders along with a a couple other skills like Shroud of Distress

We know they go in, kill, and get out, the point is the small amount of damage you can take during that time overpowers this weak spell. Most of the time you WILL be taking damage, the builds I use take abit longer than the Gps-Hoto combo to kill my target, he takes damage, I go back and heal, if I have any degen, Im screwed. Thats the point of this thread.

And btw, in any organized fight, its damn near impossible to kill before you are noticed...

Ruricu · Oct 08, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Honestly, I don't see a problem with how refuge is now. It's not a very good heal, and it shouldn't be. Assassins are meant to kill one target then get away. They have very little armor and very little healing, thus emphasizing the fact that they cannot stay in combat long. As of current, in the major PvP scope, assassins are mostly only used for base ganking in GvG. Most people who try to do this, however, die multiple times in the process, due to the mediocre healing of Shadow Refuge. To strengthen the ability for a single character to turn the tides of battle in GvG would encourage the feeling that the skill of a single person by themselves is more important than teamwork, the backbone of Guild Wars.
Just my two cents.

Lord Oranos · Oct 08, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruricu

Honestly, I don't see a problem with how refuge is now. It's not a very good heal, and it shouldn't be. Assassins are meant to kill one target then get away. They have very little armor and very little healing, thus emphasizing the fact that they cannot stay in combat long. As of current, in the major PvP scope, assassins are mostly only used for base ganking in GvG. Most people who try to do this, however, die multiple times in the process, due to the mediocre healing of Shadow Refuge. To strengthen the ability for a single character to turn the tides of battle in GvG would encourage the feeling that the skill of a single person by themselves is more important than teamwork, the backbone of Guild Wars.
Just my two cents.

So, whats the point? You say an Assassin is supposed to kill a target and get away, but they die multiple times in attempt to do so, something doesnt seem right with that. I want to see Assassins get more jobs than just a base ganker, they have alot of potential but they become a liability to the team because they have low armor and low self healing capabilities.

Shadow Refuge doesnt help that a bit... I could take a cripshot and do the same job as an Assassin, may take a couple more seconds to get to my target but its more reliable and actually supports the team in stopping runners, see my point?

I prolly interpreted this wrong but the summary of your paragraph is, "The Assassin is meant to kill one person and get out, but that messes up the idea of the game." So why have them in the first place when the one thing they can do good cant be accomplished?

scamPOR · Oct 08, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Assassins already got buffed a lot. Shadow refuge is by no means a get out of jail free card. Have you ever seen a good team run 1-2 assassins? Apparently not.

Lord Oranos · Oct 09, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamPOR

Assassins already got buffed a lot. Shadow refuge is by no means a get out of jail free card. Have you ever seen a good team run 1-2 assassins? Apparently not.

Yes, I have seen that, I saw two Coward Assassins devastate a team. The offense got buffed, I dont want a "get out of jail free card", I want a decent heal.

Flopjack · Oct 12, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Shadow refugre doesn't need any buffs. It has a low cast time for a self heal at only 1 second. It doesn't only heal for 72 like you said in your first post at level 11 Shadow Arts, it heals for 136 at level 11. Not sure where you got 72 from.

How does it heal for 136? Well the second number is 64, that is the easy part. The first part of the spell gives you 9 regeneration for 4 seconds. Regeneration and degeneration take or give 2 health per second. So 9x4=36, but that is only 1 health a second. 36x2=72 then 64+72=136!

Also, if you happen to have a +20% enchantments wrapping on your daggers, you will get another .8 of seconds of that heal. That may not seem like all that much, but if your build works off other enchantments, it will help you. That 0.8 seconds gives you an additional... around 30 health.

Suddenly Shadow Refuge heals for over 160 health, remind me how this is a bad skill again?

If you think about it, if you teleport in on an enemy and unleash a quick strong combo, it takes only seconds to get it off and teleport back out... sort of like the duration of the Assassin's heal...

swordfisher · Oct 13, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

0.8 seconds gives you in fact, nothing at all. GW math does not bother with fractions- it just takes the integer value and runs with that. 4.8 seconds turns into...4 seconds, right smack where you started. I assume this is why the 4 second duration was chosen in the first place- so you don't get free healing from a 20% enchant mod.

Flopjack · Oct 13, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I don't think you're right. Where did you get this info? Link please? I know at the very least Expertise deals with fractions with mana costs.

Symbol · Oct 13, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Both of you are wrong. Guild Wars rounds durations to the nearest seconds, so 4.8 seconds becomes 5. This is easy to test on the Isle of the Nameless.

Giga Strike · Oct 13, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

if you get to the positiion where you need to use shadow refuge, ur assassin buil sux. assassins were made to shadow step/dash to the target, fire off a combo, and get the hell out of the fight while they wait for their skills to recharge.

in fact, you shouldn't waste your time with any super powerful heals.

Lord Oranos · Oct 13, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flopjack

Shadow refugre doesn't need any buffs. It has a low cast time for a self heal at only 1 second. It doesn't only heal for 72 like you said in your first post at level 11 Shadow Arts, it heals for 136 at level 11. Not sure where you got 72 from.

How does it heal for 136? Well the second number is 64, that is the easy part. The first part of the spell gives you 9 regeneration for 4 seconds. Regeneration and degeneration take or give 2 health per second. So 9x4=36, but that is only 1 health a second. 36x2=72 then 64+72=136!

Also, if you happen to have a +20% enchantments wrapping on your daggers, you will get another .8 of seconds of that heal. That may not seem like all that much, but if your build works off other enchantments, it will help you. That 0.8 seconds gives you an additional... around 30 health.

Suddenly Shadow Refuge heals for over 160 health, remind me how this is a bad skill again?

If you think about it, if you teleport in on an enemy and unleash a quick strong combo, it takes only seconds to get it off and teleport back out... sort of like the duration of the Assassin's heal...

Excuse me, please read alittle deeper, I said the regen at 11 shadow arts tops at a total of 72 hp.18*4=72. I dont understand why you bothered with the math when I already did it for you.

So you say that a +20% enchant mod increases it, when have you seen another class NEED a different weapon for better healing, bar monk skills that are already good with the set durations.

The reason its a bad skill is the fact that regen can be actively countered, and it has a conditional heal at the end. Think of it like this: Its a healing breeze with a lower duration, higher recharge, and a conditional heal tacked on the end, Id rather have a solid, reliable heal, even if it had a 2 second cast.

You can try to say that a ranger only has regen. Well, what the ranger has is (dur) range, allowing him to stay at a reasonably safe position, evade stances, and interrupts (meaning if I see some damaging spell coming my way, Ill interrupt it). He has all around more defense.

Even when the combos take a couple of seconds(more like 3 or 4 without an ias), any smart opponent will immediately either move, interrupt your attack chain, throw a stance, or unload damage on you. The heal is easily stripped, and you wont always have the benefit of being safe enough to activate that conditional heal.

@Swordfisher, 20% mod gives two more seconds of regen.

@Giga Strike, so you think that no one will attack you? I have yet to see ANYONE not need to use shadow refuge, bar monk heals. The Assassin is meant to fire off combos and get out, but the fact is its made them predictable to the point where it cripples them, countering is easy, people know the Assassin is weak in self defense so they go for him/her, knowing he/she cant take the pressure.

Flopjack · Oct 16, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Sorry I didn't catch your math in your first post.

Saying Shadow Refuge's healing can be countered is like saying Orison of Healing's healing can be countered. ANY skill can be countered, Shadow Refuge is not special in this way. Sure people know Assassin's teleport in and can start and end a strong combo in a few seconds. Does that mean they are easily countered everytime? No. I am well aware of an enemy Fire Elementlist in Team or Random Arenas is capable of dealing 100s of damage in a few seconds, does that mean I will always be able to counter it easily? Hardly!

You cannot just say: Any smart opponent will just blah blah. Even the BEST of people can't anticipate every move of people. Sooner or later you will catch someone off guard, at low mana, stranded or something.

Plus, I didn't mention to use a +20% enchantment duration mod JUST for heailng. If your build revolves around other enchantments, it will be one of many possible boosts.

It just sounds like you took one too many Lightning Orbs to your Assassin's face. Play smarter and maybe you won't die so often.

Lord Oranos · Oct 16, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flopjack

Sorry I didn't catch your math in your first post.

Saying Shadow Refuge's healing can be countered is like saying Orison of Healing's healing can be countered. ANY skill can be countered, Shadow Refuge is not special in this way. Sure people know Assassin's teleport in and can start and end a strong combo in a few seconds. Does that mean they are easily countered everytime? No. I am well aware of an enemy Fire Elementlist in Team or Random Arenas is capable of dealing 100s of damage in a few seconds, does that mean I will always be able to counter it easily? Hardly!

You cannot just say: Any smart opponent will just blah blah. Even the BEST of people can't anticipate every move of people. Sooner or later you will catch someone off guard, at low mana, stranded or something.

Plus, I didn't mention to use a +20% enchantment duration mod JUST for heailng. If your build revolves around other enchantments, it will be one of many possible boosts.

It just sounds like you took one too many Lightning Orbs to your Assassin's face. Play smarter and maybe you won't die so often.

When did this become a question of my skill? You dont have to turn this on me but sure, Ill throw something out. I teleport in on a target, seconds after I get the combo off im spiked, well great, the targets half dead, but so am I, my point is, if you have ANY pressure on you in the form of degen its painful to get back to close to full health. I dont rely on enchants much due to the fact that theres a large chance it will be stripped. Please dont take a debate on a skill to a challenge on my personal skill.

So, youd rather cat around and watch people then actually get in and do damage? Sorry, but if you actually do kill someone, they tend to be wary afterwards. I know you cant bring counters to everything, but, guess what? Many people take anti melee spells and skills, blind, evade, snares... get my point?

My point is I want a heal that you can actually depend on, the sad fact that if you even use two Orisons it blows away Shadow Refuge, do you see other class heals doing so little at 11?

Healing Signet-122 health every 4 seconds.
Troll Unguent-8(16) regen for ten seconds, total of 160 hp heal.
Blood Renewal-Regen of 5 and a boost of 150 at the end.
Ether Feast-one foe loses 3 energy and you gain 117 health.
Aura of Restoration-healed for 334% of the energy cost each time you cast a spell.
Shadow Refuge-+9 regen, plus a conditional self heal at the end if you are attacking.

Not to mention the fact that Shadow Refuge is shatter fodder, you have to either cast it as you go in or bow someone for the heal afterwards, you try to actually(gasp) get away from an enemy and that nice heal has suddenly turned into an 8 second recharge Orison of Healing, with regen instead. If you have any focus fire on you at all it defeats the point of bowing for the heal when you are going to get hammered by attacks anyway.

And sorry, but its pretty noticeable when some nut is running towards you with daggers, I guess its damn near impossible to guess what hes going to do next.